About her ex, “I was nothing but good to this man”
This lady’s statement struck me as missing the point.
debbie commented on NML’s post “Why you’ll always be a Yo-Yo Girl if you don’t maintain the No Contact Rule” on Baggage Reclaim, about the 65th comment on that post, dated August 2nd, 2008 11:01 pm.
It’s just hard to imagine that after 4 yrs that this is the way he felt he needed to speak to me. I was nothing but good to this man.
Now, this quote is taken out of context, in a dialogue with another vistor to NML’s Baggage Reclaim site. And I understand what debbie is expressing - that she gave what she could. That there must be something wrong with him to lash out after all the dedication, loyalty, affection, and support that debbie contributed.
But a couple of things just don’t sit right. First, if she was giving what the guy needed, then I cannot imagine that she would be looking for support in picking up the pieces of a broken affair. That is, she didn’t understand what it was that he needed.
Now, the other side of this is that if she had known what he needed, she might not have been able to give it. Unless your partner is balanced mentally and emotionally, disciplined, respectable and honorable, this is something that has to be considered. He may have needed abuse, or mothering, or any number of physical and emotional communications that lie outside the realm of common, healthy relationships. And once debbie understood that he needed something that would be harmful to her to provide - she should have run.
If the problem was that he or she simply never communicated to assure that each understood what he needed, then no amount of trying on debbie’s part counts for anything at all. She wasted her time and effort, and he owes her nothing for even trying.
And it took four years for things to get big enough, and ugly enough, to move these people out of their rut of miscommunication.
Being ‘good’ to her man is what debbie should have been doing. And the reason is that it should have been making her happy to do so - not to build up a debt of obligation to hold him or to hold over his head. She contradicts herself by claiming to have been doing good for him, then turning around and thinking that should have won his respect for her.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. You don’t buy respect. It is either there, or it is not. His wasn’t there. Not at the start, not at the end. Whether she was being good to him or not doesn’t keep him from using abusive language and hurtful actions. What keeps him acting reasonably and responsibly, is his discipline and his honor. And he either exhibits that or he doesn’t. But debbie cannot buy good treatment from a lout; she has to start with a good man.
And that leaves my last concern about this snippet from debbie’s comment. The time. A missed communication, a hurtful act, these happen in moments. The response should take into account recent actions to understand them, but not ancient history. The heart does not measure time as the sun and moon do. To the heart there are moments that last a lifetime, and moments that fleet by in a heartbeat or less. When responding to anger or trouble, the timeline is terribly mercenary - “What have you done for me today, or in the last hour?!” When considering joy and happiness and affection, we think in terms of decades and years and months, where what happened today blends with the other days and years that went before.
In anger, though, nothing about parents or other relatives or friends really matter. What happened or was said an hour before is so far in the past as to be best forgotten. Debts and sacrifices buy about 30 minutes. Total.
When debbie refers to the four (4) years she spent with the guy, she loses sight of what mattered - the previous hour. And she overlooked the fact that, though she gave, her reward was limited to the satisfaction she felt at the giving, not in building favors for her to call in later.
Debbie’s complaint is understandable, and heartfelt. What Astelle tells her on Baggage Reclaim to do is to be strong, cut contact with the guy, and that he doesn’t deserve her attention. All very true. But if I could, I would pass on to debbie this advice: Think about what you are saying. Because your complaints paint a picture of an abuser, not someone you can afford in your life. And your complaints also suggest you are more desperate than in love - that most of the bond between debbie and her ex-guy was debbie’s affection, not an exchange of love.
If I could steer debbie from her vision of her ex-relationship as just going sour, and instead have her view her previous attachment as dysfunctional, that she tried to make a faulty bond with an emotionally unavailable guy - into a love relationship. It was a good try, for about the first four (4) months. After that she tried harder when she should have known better. Blame the first four (4) months on picking the wrong guy, the following forty-four (44) months were debbie’s poor judgment in staying. And I think debbie could heal faster, and prepare for the rest of her life better, if she accepts he was the wrong guy, that picking an honest, honorable, disciplined guy that is interested in a family will be what she decides is most important in the next date she goes on. And the one after that.
August 4th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
You can’t buy respect and you shouldn’t keep score. It’s not tit for tat is it? And yet fallback girls will give and give and give more than 3 times over expecting to get in return. You’re right. Debbie has to accept that he’s the wrong guy. She has to get real enough to accept her part in it and heal enough to find that honest, honorable, disciplined guy. She needs to realize that desperation will only lead to more desperation and to more heartache. Not something any of us can afford in our lives is it?
August 4th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
LisaQ,
Thanks for visiting! And you are right, this is a problem, not just Debbie’s problem.
As for giving and giving - that is the right thing to do - with a good companion. Everyone goes through rough times. There is some trading back and forth when one has resources and the other has needs - then later the relationship shifts and our partner is still there, making our lives happier than if we faced our trouble alone. It does *not* even out. At any given time someone will be ‘behind’ on contributing - maybe the same partner, all the time. The only equation that matters is, ‘Have I given what is needed, and am I satisfied in the giving?’
Feeling desperate is *not* feeling satisfied.
August 11th, 2008 at 9:27 am
“That is, she didn’t understand what it was that he needed.”
“Now, the other side of this is that if she had known what he needed, she might not have been able to give it. Unless your partner is balanced mentally and emotionally, disciplined, respectable and honorable, this is something that has to be considered. He may have needed abuse, or mothering, or any number of physical and emotional communications that lie outside the realm of common, healthy relationships. And once debbie understood that he needed something that would be harmful to her to provide - she should have run.”
You just opened a huge door for me, Brad. Thank you.
All of that was important.
I never understood that I wasn’t giving him what he needed.
I didn’t even ask.
I just assumed I had what he wanted.
No wonder it couldn’t ever work.
LIGHT BULB MOMENT HERE
August 11th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Loving Annie, thanks for visiting!
Please, don’t forget the flip side - you have to set limits on what you are prepared to provide to meet his needs. Some things that he might demand or need, are too harmful for you to give.
For many of us, buying a rocket to plant a colony on the moon is beyond our savings account. Before you invest a lot into a partner, you have to be sure that you can *afford* to meet their needs.
August 11th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Hi again Brad.
What he needed was a woman who would keep his secrets, and was as private and guarded as he was. And needed to be rescued. (his Mom was an alcoholic and so was his ex-girlfriend)
I was open and don’t have secrets. I don’t have addictions to drinking/drugs/cigarettes or alcohol - and thought that was what he would want.
We were at opposites, with totally different subconscious thoughts.
That’s why your article here was such a lightbulb - it made me SEE that I didn’t know what he needed at all.
Now perhaps had he explained it to me, I would have been able to do the first part beautifully. (but private guarded people don’t communicate openly and say what they really need)
I could not have done the second, not in that way.
It just further answers the ‘why” question.
When I date again, someone available who wants me, I will be much more careful to thoroughly ask questions, and not make assumptions.
And yes, you bring up another good point - about setting limits. Like NML does - the healthy boundaries.
Which would have made me run/eliminated that elusive/mysterious man after the first month.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:41 am
Loving Annie, looking back and taking time to figure out what happened is a luxury, and a necessary part of experience. At least, when we learn from experience. Looking back, the feedback part, is what makes the scientific method so effective, what makes the ’six step troubleshooting method’ that the Navy taught me work so well. And it is astonishing how late in history this simple practice was recognized and published.
Most of the quirks and needs are tough for someone to articulate. For instance, I would be really hard pressed to list my needs as an objective list. I am tempted to think of my ‘needs’ as what it seems that my companion is likely to provide, or that I can encourage from her. So the needs that I could list vary by my understanding of my companion - and I either deny or remain ignorant of the fundamental things that I would need from a lifemate.
Go ahead and ask - but be prepared, most people will confuse a list of ‘needs’ with what they treasure about their companion, what a Politically Correct society deems appropriate (and endearing) that week, or even what the partner’s self-image demands to bolster that image (regardless of actual emotional needs).
A non-verbal list of your partner’s needs, gathered over time from observation and experience, will let you figure if you can meet those needs, or if you feel compromised trying to meet them. Someone that is always late, mildly disorganized, easily distracted would grate horribly on an anal retentive, punctual, organizationally minded person. Someone at either extreme would be *wrong* to try to accommodate what their partner needs - though many couples with just this mismatch acknowledge how their partner is, and go on as their needs dictate.
And that is my point. That some things you can tolerate if you can’t meet your partner’s needs - but some things will wreck you. We conduct sex-ed classes for our kids - who will teach them about dropping an inappropriate date? Who will teach us? (Thanks, NML!)